Jon Wiener: From The Nation journal, that is Begin Making Sense. I’m Jon Wiener. Later within the present: Robert Reich says the origin of our troubles with Trump and MAGA return to the sixties
he says it was our mistake, beginning with the sixties actions – that we created “an enormous political void that may ultimately be crammed by Donald Trump’s indignant, bigoted cultural populism.” His new memoir is “Coming Up Quick” — we’ll speak about it, later within the hour. However first, how can we face how dangerous issues are actually, whereas additionally understanding the explanations for hope – and the alternatives for motion? Katrina Vanden Heuvel, editor and publiser of The Nation, will remark – in a minute.
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Katrina vanden Heuvel, longtime editorial director and writer of The Nation, has returned to work this week as editor of the journal. She’s additionally been a columnist for the Washington Submit. She’s written for the New York Instances, the LA Instances, and The Guardian, the place she’s now a daily contributor. Katrina, welcome again
Katrina vanden Heuvel: Thanks, Jon. You already know, if I’d preempt you, which I’ve accomplished too usually on discuss TV — These are excessive occasions, and I felt that, whereas there can be a successor to me, somebody youthful, I felt at this second a belief in The Nation, each as a belief of historical past, a trusted impartial publication, at a time when impartial media is below horrible stress. And I’m not fetishizing historical past, I’m not tethered to historical past, however I do draw from historical past to know what is going on in the present day. I imagine that it’s an unparalleled, harmful, perilous time. On the similar time, I really feel a resilience, having studied and lived via horrible occasions, and I feel that permits me to search out the writers and thinkers.
And likewise my sister used to say her mates liked ‘Sure!’, exclamation level, and she or he mentioned they love The Nation, however they considered it as “No!” exclamation level, possibly. However I do suppose it is a time to carry up what’s taking place round this nation and the world that supply different affirmative initiatives, as a result of we are able to’t all dwell on doom and gloom, and doom scrolling all day. We’d like, I hate to say, the imaginative and prescient, however to have an alternate sense of what’s working and classes to be drawn, however in methods which are alive and vibrant. And I actually really feel devoted to that.
And the manager editor, who will change into John Nichols, can be somebody I’ve labored with. We’ve devised the honour roll over time, folks doing good issues in dangerous occasions, good occasions, not so good occasions, and drawing that from the thirties, Thirties, from the journal. There’s a brand new politics that The Nation in some methods has discovered a tie to, and we’re going to actually check that in these coming months and years.
JW: In fact, the publishing panorama, as you’ve prompt, is rather a lot darker now than once you left day-to-day enhancing in 2019. Simply to remind everyone, the writer of the Washington Submit stood subsequent to Trump at his inauguration. One other of his corporations paid $40 million to license a Melania Trump documentary. That’s the Washington Submit’s proprietor. A number of of their most vital writers left in protest.
Extra just lately, CBS fired its high late night time host, Stephen Colbert, whose nightly ridicule of Trump has been relentless and hilarious. And the dad or mum firm of CBS, Paramount, paid Trump $16 million for, in quotes, his ‘presidential library’ after he sued them for a 60 Minutes interview with Kamala Harris.
And earlier than that, ABC information paid Trump 15 million, once more for his presidential library, to settle a defamation lawsuit over a report by George Stephanopoulos. That’s the Washington Submit, CBS and ABC.
And a few methods a lot worse is the Republicans in Congress have defunded NPR and PBS. The Company for Public Broadcasting is closing. And meaning many dozens of public radio and TV stations, particularly within the much less populous crimson states, will go darkish. That may be a totalitarian transfer that’s rather a lot larger than networks paying money to Trump. And that makes impartial media, together with The Nation, extra vital than ever. It deepens our duties.
And as you’ve mentioned, the toughest half is dealing with how dangerous issues are, whereas we’re additionally seeing the explanations for hope and for motion. Doing each of these issues concurrently is tough, however as you say, you’ve had some expertise with this.
KVH: Our longtime contributor, you knew him properly, Jon, Gore Vidal used to explain The Nation as ‘an early alert warning system’ to what’s coming over the transom, over the fortifications. I consider my colleague, Mark Hartsgaard, whose e book ‘On Bended Knee’ was in regards to the media in the course of the Reagan period. That is worse, however I’d recommend that we revisit the 1996 Nationwide Leisure Collection. The Nation did the primary centerfold, which confirmed GE, ABC, Information Corp — It confirmed that information was a cog in a company construction, which had regulatory enterprise in Washington DC. We’re seeing that exposed painfully crystal clear within the Trump years.
The independence of a publication is marked not simply by its monetary state, however it’s in these occasions largely outlined by those that need to be near a president who thrives on corruption and spectacle and enter into his personal piggybank. However I do suppose that the company media has proven how craven it’s in these final months, and it’s as much as The Nation and impartial media, to not converse fact to energy, Jon, as a result of I imagine these in energy know the reality, however to show the reality — in order that atypical folks, good folks, can seize that information and mobilize. As a result of in the event you don’t know, you don’t know what you’re mobilizing for. I do suppose The Nation does play a crucial function in these occasions. Simply briefly, we did a number of reporting on how Rupert Murdoch purchased his method to finish the intense cross-ownership guidelines. These are going to be obliterated within the subsequent few weeks. And we have now his transfer to LA: the LA Pest goes to open quickly.
JW: You’re speaking right here about Rupert Murdoch’s announcement that he’s launching a California version of the New York Submit proper wing tabloid, and that is alleged to occur in early 202,6 primarily based in Los Angeles, referred to as the California Submit.
KVH: I feel there may be very top quality journalism being accomplished at The Nation at different publications which are impartial. I’m on the Hillman Media Judging Committee and we see that yearly. It’s the enterprise mannequin, Jon, that’s nonetheless very perilous and harmful, as we see how the company media has capitulated, anticipatorily capitulated, and opened the sluice gates for extra peril to the media remaining.
JW: We have to keep in mind that what Trump is doing will not be common, even amongst his personal supporters, proper now. His tariffs are the primary factor that’s been driving down his approval rankings and inflicting his 2024 coalition to unravel. Let me simply summarize among the latest knowledge from the Economist-YouGov ballot. His general approval ranking simply within the six months since he took workplace: down 21 factors. Down 44 factors with 18 to 29 12 months olds. Approval down 30 factors with Hispanics since he took workplace. 29 factors down with Independents. Down 20 factors with folks making lower than 100 thousand {dollars} a 12 months. And it’s not simply the financial system, inflation, the excessive costs for meals and lease. He’s underwater on nearly all the problems. Many extra folks disapprove than approve of what he’s accomplished on immigration, deportations, schooling, social applications. On healthcare, his approval ranking is 35%. So we have now massive alternatives right here — and likewise massive duties.
KVH: I agree. Now we have alternative. Now we have accountability. These numbers are exhilarating. It doesn’t imply that these numbers transfer in a straight line route. I feel the city corridor conferences, which we’re going to cowl this August, will expose lawmakers to anger and despair, and will open issues up. But it surely calls for an opposition get together which speaks on to folks’s lives and affords an alternate in order that it’s not one and a half events. I do suppose the media performs a job right here. There are impartial media displaying the despair and the disillusion, however Trump dominates the information. He nonetheless dominates the world and that should change. I feel we’re seeing different leaders converse in ways in which do contact folks.
JW: I need to speak about that – as a result of, whereas the information is horrible, it’s not all dangerous. In all probability the brightest mild within the present darkish panorama is Mamdani, the Social Democrat who beat former governor Andrew Cuomo to win the Democratic nomination for mayor of New York Metropolis. What has The Nation needed to say about his marketing campaign?
KVH: Properly, you’ll see extra subsequent week when the interview John Nichols and I did – the hour interview on the Little Flower Cafe in Astoria, ‘Little Flower’ being the nickname for Zorhan Mamdani’s favourite mayor, Fiorella LaGuardia. What Mamani has accomplished, and I noticed him on Sunday with Elizabeth Warren, who got here to marketing campaign for him, is make affordability a central premise of a progressive panorama. It’s not the banks, however affordability of groceries, of transportation, of housing. And he’s accomplished it with a smile and an class and a use of social media that’s actually unparalleled. It reveals, it reminds us that The Nation wants, sure, sincerity, but in addition levity, I imply with a goal. And I’m impressed.
He got here again from Uganda the place he went to see his mother and father and grandparents to introduce them to his new spouse. However he got here again and he met with a household of the non-public safety cop who had been killed within the horrible shootings just a few days earlier than, when he’d been in Uganda. And he did it with a humanity that crossed the politicization and weaponization of such incidents.
I feel he has an actual probability and he’s introduced collectively an awesome coalition. Your viewers could know of ranked selection voting. It didn’t work properly in 2021 in New York Metropolis. We endorsed 1, 2, 3, however one was Zorhan and two was Brad Lander, who’s been a very long time progressive advocate on town council, now controller. The Working Households Social gathering the subsequent day did the identical lineup of Zorhan and Brad Lander. What Brad Lander did although in coalition with Zorhan is essential to understanding the success of ranked selection voting.
JW: And it’s not simply deep blue New York Metropolis the place we’ve had some putting progressive victories, simply within the final month. Let’s speak about Seattle. Seattle, the house of Microsoft and Amazon, the place a girl named Katie Wilson is displaying that Mamdani will not be alone. I didn’t find out about her till I learn The Nation.
KVH: That’s a part of the function of The Nation in a manner. However Katie Wilson, that may be a robust metropolis, however she has taken it on via taxation points, the referendum, the large tech, excessive tech firms, and she or he is a transportation knowledgeable. The mayor of Boston who’s 36 goes to be reelected. So there are these across the nation, and I do suppose with gridlock and worse in Washington DC it’s vital to have champions on the metropolis and state stage.
JW: Far more superb than Seattle or Boston: let’s speak about Omaha, a metropolis in one of many reddest states that has had a Republican mayor who’s held workplace since 2013; received her final race by 30 factors. Nonetheless, a Democrat, John Ewing Jr., beat her in Might by almost 13 factors. When you do the arithmetic there, that’s a shift of 43 factors. In Omaha, a crimson metropolis. Once more, I realized about this from The Nation. What can Democrats study from John Ewing Jr’s victory in Omaha?
KVH: Properly, to start with, Nebraska has an excellent Democratic chair who’s written for us, Jane Kleb. You’re a historian. I’m not. However that area of the nation had farmer-labor alliances. It was a populist a part of the nation, and he’s retrieving these traditions in a contemporary manner. So I feel he’s operating a populist multiracial marketing campaign within the massive cities, in Omaha a populist marketing campaign, which leads with the bread and butter points. And I feel that there’s a gap for that and he’s displaying it.
So when folks say it could actually’t be accomplished — I feel subsequent is Idaho. I’m going to take again Frank Church’s seat. The well-known story: Eric Foner emailed –nice historian — emailed me one night time and mentioned,’ can somebody get one thing to Bernie Sanders? Can he cease speaking about Denmark?’ Eric Foner in the midst of the night time wrote an open letter, which we printed, it was to Bernie, about retrieving your individual nation’s radical traditions, which exist — and will not be so odd and fringy. They’re a part of the custom, and I feel that a part of The Nation’s mission is to focus on what’s new however has roots in a historical past.
JW: I feel Trump is aware of he’s in serious trouble within the midterms subsequent fall. He is aware of how unpopular he’s. He is aware of how tiny his the Republican margin is within the Home, and the way seemingly that the Democrats can win the Home. I feel that explains this authoritarian scheme of his in Texas to eradicate 5 Democratic congressional seats via an unprecedented reapportionment transfer. John Nichols has a bit up at The Nation proper now on the web site that claims,’Consultant democracy will dwell or die in Texas.’
KVH: It’s an indication of how authoritarian, not solely Trump is, however among the governors, who had been ramming via laws to rig the system. That’s not a democratic system that Abbott is making an attempt to create, and it’s occurred earlier than. And you’re looking at individuals who rigged the principles. And by the best way, it’s additionally the anniversary, I feel the sixtieth of the Voting Rights Act. Making that harder to do? That’s referred to as democracy, and that’s how they run. That’s how they rule, and it’s one thing we have now to show and rally folks to know how harmful it’s as a result of it’s a slippery slope. You start in Texas, you’re going to see it across the nation, and we’re asking one of many legislators, a great lawyer who fled, to put in writing for The Nation in regards to the expertise.
JW: In conclusion right here, you’ve simply returned to the editor’s desk at The Nation this week. What do you see the schedule for the subsequent weeks and months and 12 months for what we used to name ‘America’s oldest weekly’?
KVH: Properly, we’re doing occasions to mark the 160th anniversary – from an occasion at Moral Tradition honoring the intern program, which Victor Navasky began greater than 40 years in the past. Somebody wrote to me in the present day that they worth The Nation, not simply due to the phrases we publish, however due to the folks we’ve form of introduced via the media and journalistic system. In order that can be attention-grabbing.
After which we have now Kaveh Akbar, our poetry editor, with Judy Collins.
After which we’re heading to San Francisco the place I hope to be in dialog with Jerry Brown, and we’ll have Elie Mystal, our nice justice correspondent, and Rebecca Solnit and others in dialog about this second.
However I additionally flip again to my desk and I’m going to edit Jamie Galbraith on parallels between Reagan and Trump on the financial system, which is one thing to consider. And a bit in regards to the New York Metropolis political scene, which has modified actually in attention-grabbing methods. The Working Households Social gathering, which The Nation helped create in 1998, is now thought-about kind of the senior man on the road. And DSA, which you’ve seen over time, Democratic Socialists for America has had a number of power and enter.
I do suppose that I’m a deviation at The Nation as a result of we do have a youthful era of democratic socialists. I stay a Rooseveltian 2.0. Lina Kahn, the nice anti-monopolist professor, former head of the FTC, had an op-ed the opposite day, I want we’d printed it — about Zorhan and small enterprise. We must always not cede small enterprise to the proper. And his work on halal vehicles and bodegas have redefined in some measure what small companies do.
One in every of our contributors, I’ve mentioned this earlier than, Norman Thomas, a socialist we endorsed in 1932, mentioned, ‘there aren’t any misplaced causes. There are solely causes ready to be received.’ However I do suppose that realism is vital, but in addition resilience. I feel it’s a really robust time for lots of people and we have now to be understanding of that — in order that we give folks, not the week of Trump, we do this, however we additionally give them the week of Resistance 2.0.
JW: Katrina Vanden Heuvel, she’s Writer of The Nation — And now, as soon as once more, editor of The Nation Journal. Katrina, thanks for all of your work, and thanks for speaking with us in the present day.
KVH: Thanks.
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Jon Wiener: Now it’s time to speak with Robert Reich about how we obtained right here and what we are able to do now. He’s accomplished rather a lot in his life: He’s a legendary trainer at Berkeley. He was Secretary of Labor below Invoice Clinton. He’s written 18 books, which have been translated into 22 languages. His articles have appeared in The New Yorker, The Atlantic, The New York Instances, The Washington Submit, and The Wall Road Journal. He’s a columnist now for The Guardian. And a number of us learn his day by day e-newsletter at Substack or observe him on Instagram or TikTok or YouTube, the place he’s a star. And he has a brand new e book out: It’s referred to as Coming Up Quick: A Memoir of My America. We reached him in the present day in Berkeley. Robert Reich, welcome again.
Robert Reich: Properly, good to speak to you, Jon.
JW: You name your memoir ‘a narrative of the failure of my era.’ It’s mine too. You say it was our mistake, beginning with the sixties’ actions. We had a civil rights motion and an anti-war motion, after which within the seventies, a ladies’s motion, then a homosexual rights motion, then an environmental motion. However you say one motion was lacking — and that created what you name ‘an enormous political void that may ultimately be crammed by Donald Trump’s indignant, bigoted, cultural populism.’ What was lacking?
RR: Properly, in a phrase, it was the labor motion – truly, two phrases, Jon. The labor motion had been round clearly in suits and begins over 100 years, however I didn’t actually, and right here’s my confessional, I didn’t actually give it some thought in these days as a motion. Labor was there. It was massive labor, there have been massive corporations, massive firms, and there was massive authorities, and it didn’t appear obligatory in a method to think about or to speak in regards to the labor motion or to speak even in regards to the working class. And I feel that that was my error. It was an error that lots of people made as a result of all of those different actions did take a lifetime of their very own, they completed an awesome deal, however by forgetting about staff and the labor motion, I feel we laid the groundwork for one thing fairly ugly.
JW: The Democrats’ nice flip away from the working class and the labor motion after all got here within the Invoice Clinton years once you had been Secretary of Labor. The entire thing was fairly clear from the beginning of the Clinton marketing campaign in 1992, not less than in the event you listened to 3rd get together candidate, Ross Perot. You quote him in your e book as regards to NAFTA, which George HW Bush had simply negotiated with Mexico, additionally Canada, in one of many presidential debates in ‘92, watched by 60 million folks. That’s about the identical quantity that watched the debates this 12 months. Perot defined why he was in opposition to NAFTA. “When you’re paying $13 or $14 an hour for manufacturing facility staff and you may transfer your manufacturing facility south of the border and pay $1 an hour, haven’t any healthcare, no atmosphere or air pollution controls, no retirement, and also you don’t care about something however getting cash, there can be an enormous sucking sound coming from the south.” In the present day, that appears apparent. How did it appear to you in 1992?
RR: In 1992, Jon? I used to be apprehensive about that. I believed that, and I put it in barely in numerous phrases. I apprehensive that American staff would lose bargaining leverage. They had been already shedding bargaining energy. I talked about it contained in the, in coed incipient Clinton administration, however I misplaced these inner debates. It was very clear, Invoice Clinton and different folks round him wished to embrace NAFTA, and I did what I used to be instructed to do, and I feel looking back, I don’t know whether or not that was the proper factor to do. I argued as a lot as I may, and I additionally argued in opposition to Chinese language accession to the World Commerce Group. Actually, I used to be apprehensive that that may have a good larger, basically a sucking sound. I misplaced a number of the arguments internally, Jon, I’ve written about that. You and I’ve talked about that, and I suppose from the place we’re proper now, I see that each one of this contributed to, it didn’t lead in inevitably to Donald Trump, but it surely contributed to the emergence of Donald Trump.
JW: The large debate in American politics actually for the final 50 years has been framed by the Republicans. They are saying extra authorities is dangerous. Freedom from massive authorities is sweet, freedom for the market. You’ve been arguing with this place for a very long time now. Remind us what your reply has been.
RR: I’ve mentioned it so usually. It simply, it’s kind of computerized and I don’t suppose folks even hear as a result of I’m so predictable. The query will not be kind of authorities. The query is, who’s authorities for? Is it working for common working folks and the poor, or is it working for the individuals who have some huge cash and a number of sources and large firms? And positively, over the past a long time, authorities has accomplished increasingly more on behalf of the latter, that’s massive firms and the rich as a result of that’s the place the cash has come from for campaigns. That’s the place the legalized bribery that I speak about within the e book has actually occurred. And if we need to, and we have now to, and this isn’t if we need to, we have now to disabuse ourselves from that form of dependancy. And the Democratic Social gathering has obtained to surrender the company and monetary Democrats which have been so vital to the get together by way of cash however have eroded the get together’s ethical authority.
JW: Once you had been Secretary of Labor, you probably did get Congress to lift the minimal wage simply earlier than the ‘96 elections. What had it been and what did they do?
RR: Properly, they raised the minimal wage to, I imagine it was $5 and—
JW: 15.
RR: 15 cents, which I imply, it doesn’t, from in the present day’s standpoint, it doesn’t seem like something, but it surely had been $4 and 25 cents. It was a Republican Senate and a Republican Home. They didn’t need to elevate the minimal wage. And mainly, it wasn’t me, I imply, I did attempt to lead that cost on the hill, however what actually did it was that the majority Individuals and the Republicans noticed the polls, the identical polls that everyone else noticed. And it was not only one ballot. It was ballot after ballot after ballot. Most Individuals wished the minimal wage raised, not as a result of they’d profit. They knew that they weren’t on a minimal wage, however they felt that it was the honest factor to do. And that’s a vital a part of the story as a result of Individuals have this very deep-seated sense of what’s honest and what’s not honest. I noticed it firsthand after I was labor secretary and earlier than and after and since. And we are able to’t merely assume that everyone is cynical like Donald Trump, or everyone is adverse and imply spirited like Donald Trump. No, I feel Individuals actually are essentially good and honest.
JW: It’s been 16 years since Congress raised the federal minimal wage. It’s been $7 and 25 cents. You mentioned the Republicans supported it in 1996, and that was as a result of so many Individuals supported elevating the minimal wage. Don’t so many Individuals nonetheless assist elevating the minimal wage? 83% say the present $7 and 25 cents price will not be sufficient to dwell on. How a lot ought to it’s in 2023? 65% of voters mentioned $15 an hour. Youthful folks favor much more.
RR: In the present day, you’re completely proper. I imply the identical share, if no more, need the minimal wage raised. It hasn’t been raised since 2009. That is loopy. We are able to’t anticipate. Most individuals can’t probably dwell on in the present day’s minimal wage. It must be not less than $15. And in the event you truly managed for each inflation and productiveness enhancements, it will be nearer to twenty or $25 an hour.
JW: So after Clinton, after all, then got here Obama, there was that speech in 2004 that he gave on the Democratic Nationwide Conference that made him an immediate hero. He mentioned, “there’s not a liberal America and a conservative America. There’s a United States of America.” Now in the present day, that appears completely mistaken, doesn’t it?
RR: It does. It appears quaint, if not mistaken. I imply, how can there be not a liberal and never a conservative America? And I feel what Obama was making an attempt to do, and he did it with such grace, and he did, he continued to attempt to do it. And that’s to inform us that we’re a part of one society, one experiment in democracy, and we shouldn’t enable folks to attempt to divide us. I imply, look, let’s be clear right here, the divide and conquer technique has been very efficient. And it’s been utilized by, I’m positive Vladimir Putin has been utilizing it. And I’m positive additionally the oligarchy of America has used it since you see, in the event you can divide Individuals and make them suppose that they’re actual enemies are the folks on the opposite aspect of the political divide, then they don’t lookup and see the place all the cash and energy actually has gone in our society.
JW: Obama didn’t actually assist with this downside in any respect. Regardless of the financial crash of 2008. He caught with Wall Road and the large banks and divide in America, deepened and after America, the 2016 elections. Bernie Sanders ran within the Democratic primaries although he wasn’t a Democrat. And although, as you say, he was a 74-year-old Jew from Vermont. You say, if the DNC had not tipped the scales in opposition to him by rigging marketing campaign financing in favor of Hillary, Bernie would’ve been the get together’s nominee in 2016. How do you are feeling about Bernie?
RR: I like Bernie. He’s one in every of my heroes. I don’t know the place he will get his power, his stamina, his tenacity. However he’s been there and he’s on the market, at the same time as we converse, he’s on the market. He’s speaking to folks. He’s telling the reality, and God bless Bernie.
JW: I need to change the topic to your instructing. You taught at Harvard and you then taught at Berkeley. You’ve simply retired. Harvard, after all, the elite non-public college, Berkeley, the flagship public college. What variations did you see, and which did you want higher?
RR: Oh, Berkeley. I imply, Harvard is an excellent establishment, clearly, however I like College of California, Berkeley. Berkeley, in truth, your complete College of California system is the biggest and strongest system of upward mobility in America. My college students, most of them had been first era, first era by way of getting a university diploma. A 3rd of them got here straight. They transferred from neighborhood schools. It’s an engine of upward mobility.
JW: One factor I need to ask you about that I’ve realized solely just lately, not everyone is all for politics the best way we’re. Actually, most individuals aren’t very all for politics. They don’t observe the information that a lot, particularly working class and poor folks. They’re preoccupied with their very own lives, their very own issues, their very own pleasures, politics for them, is kind of just like the Olympics. You watch it each 4 years for a few days, possibly you hope your crew wins. And all the trouble and all the cash that our aspect places into getting the proper message out, a message that’s been examined, they don’t concentrate. They’re not very . They vote on obscure emotions: ‘I like him,’ or ‘he looks like a great man to me’ =- or they don’t vote in any respect. 89 million folks didn’t vote in 2024. That’s much more than the quantity of people that voted for Trump, 77 million.
So higher messaging, which a lot of our work goes into determining, higher messaging might not be one of the best ways to achieve all these folks. We have to discover different modes of communication, different methods to achieve them than the form of politics we’ve been doing all our lives. And now you’re a star on TikTok and YouTube the place you may have 1.3 million subscribers. And on Instagram you may have 2 million followers – and Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, these are the locations the place now the place tens of millions of people that don’t learn the day by day newspaper or watch TV information get their data. How did you change into so good at this?
RR: I don’t know. I don’t know. I actually don’t know. I’ve two sons, one in every of whom named Sam has been doing a number of social media. Sam runs an organization referred to as Dropout Tv. Have you ever seen any of that?
JW: Nope.
RR: Properly, you’re not alone. I imply, no person our age has seen it. However younger folks, my college students, all of them know Sam. Actually, someone got here as much as me on the sidewalk simply a few days in the past and mentioned, I imply, “Are you Sam Reich’s father?”
However just a few years in the past, it was about 10 years in the past, Sam mentioned to me, “Dad, I do know you write books. You want to put in writing books. And I do know you get a number of satisfaction out of it, however my era is – they’re not massive readers, notably of your form of e book. And if you wish to attain my generations era, you’ve obtained to do social media.”
And at that time, I barely knew what social media was, however he tutored me, he helped me. And I’ve just a little group of younger people who find themselves of their twenties and thirties who helped me do it. I couldn’t do it with out them. They’re very proficient and so they hold me younger to the extent that anyone can do this. So sure, I imply, I nonetheless write books, therefore the e book we’re speaking about, Coming Up Quick, however I do a number of social media as a result of it’s a manner of instructing. It’s a manner of connecting.
JW: I need to speak about one different factor: tall folks. Your memoir, you referred to as Coming Up Quick. It’s the thesis of your e book that our era didn’t strengthen democracy. However that’s additionally a pun about your peak. You aren’t a tall individual. I’m not a tall individual. And also you make the purpose that the taller candidate normally wins the election. Our tallest presidents, I look them up, there’s a Wikipedia web page, ‘Presidents by peak.’ Lincoln is our tallest president, six toes, 4 inches. LBJ quantity 2, 6’3” and a half, Clinton 6’3”, FDR 6’2”, Obama 6’2”, George HW Bush 6’2”, JFK 6’1”, Reagan 6’1”, Joe Biden, 6 toes even. What about Trump? In fact, Trump lies about his peak. He claims to be 6’3”. There’s additionally a Wikipedia web page about this, however images present him standing proper subsequent to Obama, and so they’re precisely the identical peak, kind of. Trump has extra hair on high of his head, so possibly he’s, and Obama is 6’2”. I had a professor who blamed all of the troubles of the world on what he referred to as the six-footers. Why ought to the six-footers at all times win?
RR: Properly, that’s an excellent query. I feel there’s a number of prejudice in our society that we don’t speak about in opposition to quick males or in favor of tall males, and girls it’s barely completely different. However I feel that the research that I’ve learn, and I’ve been form of on this topic, clearly I’ve a private curiosity, however I’ve been sociologically. It seems that, and there are lots of evolutionary biologists and others who suppose that we’re form of genetically wired to decide on massive folks, tall males, to be our leaders as a result of they’re, once more, by way of form of Darwinian survival of the fittest, they’re those who can shield us. Even our language, once we speak about ‘trying as much as someone’ or ‘someone has stature’ or I imply, there are every kind of how we unconsciously are prejudicial. After which in relationship, I don’t know whether or not you had this expertise, Jon. I’m very quick and there have been quite a lot of ladies who simply didn’t need to have a look at me. They didn’t need to exit with a boy who’s shorter than they had been. And that was the cruelest, the cruelest of all prejudices.
JW: Last item: the lengthy sport. Going again to Bernie only for a minute right here. One of many belongings you say you like about Bernie is that he exemplifies the lengthy sport his complete life. He’s been saying the identical factor. He doesn’t have an issue staying on message. Now we have midterms arising in a 12 months and a half. Then we have now an election after that. What’s the lengthy sport for us proper now?
RR: I feel the lengthy sport has obtained to guard our democracy, and to really get it again, to revive and rebuild democratic establishments. Within the e book, I speak about Donald Trump as not being the reason for our current issues, however the consequence, the fruits of a long time of neglect. We took many of those establishments with no consideration. We deregulated. I used to be a part of an administration that deregulated Wall Road, that embraced free commerce, that didn’t pay a lot consideration as firms obtained larger and larger and monopolized industries that didn’t actually pay a lot consideration to unions. And I feel that each one of this added as much as a, I don’t need to be reductionist right here and say it mechanically led to Trump, but it surely led to a big and disaffected and indignant working class that felt seemed down upon, felt forgotten. And when someone like Trump got here alongside, and although he lied via his tooth and although he was a Malicious program for the rich and the billionaires, he seemed like, he acted like he cared about, and he acknowledged working class folks.
JW: Robert Reich – his new e book is Coming Up Quick, A Memoir of My America. Bob, thanks for all of your work, and thanks for speaking with us in the present day.
RR: Properly, Jon, thanks.